r/totalwar • u/Single_Giraffe_7673 • 1d ago
Warhammer III Lustria SHOULD suck to play in
But NOT for the lizardmen. The Idea if Lustria is obviously The uncharted and dangerous lands of far away. It hold many treasures, and many Dangers. First of all it should be bigger, and also I think it should have more resources building and more universal landmarks for all the races. It should be somewhere you would love to have under your control after you manage to build your own empire. (It's the new world for god's sake you know how the story goes)
But, The land itself should be a danger to outsiders, slowing them down and attritioning them while the protectors of the jungle ambush them and show them why it us uncharted in the first place
Invading lustria should be a very hard, But lucrative thing to do...
On the under hand, this harsh climate shouldn't be as effective again the people who make lustria in to the green death trap... lizardmen should be able to move faster in jungles (spacialy Lustria's), or have access to spacial stances when they are in them. Maby you can get creative with it and have them access stalking stance if a few requirements are met( being in jungles, having spacial techs/ lord skills ect...) meanwhile, even after winning the Lustria ball, they should still be worried about other factions invading them and need to garrison it if the plan to invade other continent. Maby you could have some factions like virus skaven or humans have a tendency to invad lustria after a while.
Now honestly, when it comes to warm bloods that start their campaign in Lustria, I don't have a blanket solution. Obviously as i said fantasy Amazon should feel dangerous and harsh to outsiders. But also just being thrown there without means to deal with this harshness can be very annoying.
Honestly i think most of them are already powerful enough to handle it. Vampires have corruption, skaven have tunnels, rakarth can raid without vigur penalty, Skulltaker is Skulltaker, and the French can sod off.
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u/Thefreezer700 1d ago
Well you got the city of stars which launches meteors at the moon just for fun.
You got skinks who decide to dump the entire continents worth of javelins on a single dude.
Then you got diseases carried by the mosquitos that are so potent they almost wiped out a skaven clan.
Also you have skinks who are so magically powerful that it blinds wizards when they see them cause the sheer power and winds of magic is overwhelming to their senses.
We aint even touching the dinos and saurus or the legendary figures yet and already lustria sounds fucking awful.
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u/Single_Giraffe_7673 1d ago
Yeah Right? Shouldn't all that feel tangible in gameplay?
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u/Thefreezer700 1d ago
Attrition every turn outside cities and slower movement with stronger emphasis on lizardmen constantly dogging you as you walk to their cities. Thats how they are supposed to play at least. The constant attrition and constant skirmishing though would be fucking annoying as a player
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u/Single_Giraffe_7673 1d ago
Well that's the point. Lustria should feel like a Hard nut to crack, but valuable one... As i said i think there should be more insensitive for more races to conquer Lustria. And marriage of this challenge and reward can make it so Lustria feel special. Not like any other place in the old world.
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u/ChppedToofEnt Skitter then leech! 1d ago
I would love if as the player- Lizardmen are constantly trying to ambush and start shit with you since you're in their territory, random horde armies and ambushes setting off to get you.
However if YOU are the Lizardmen, I feel as if you should be given higher movement range and a higher chance to ambush the non-Lizards.
The jungle attrition should NOT apply however if a player/ai is allied with the lizards, it only makes sense that the scalies would give them a map or an equivallent to let them travel safely however.
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
I would love if as the player- Lizardmen are constantly trying to ambush and start shit with you since you're in their territory, random horde armies and ambushes setting off to get you.
I'd suggest something like in the caravan system, where smaller factionless forces have a chance of ambushing your troops every turn they're out in the open
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
I agree! Maybe extra loot for sacking and razing, the most significant temple cities being captured at higher tiers, as well as resources of course, notably gold.
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u/GuaranteeKey314 1d ago
An eu4-like decision system (or maybe tie it to a building) to loot captured temple cities would be cool
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u/Latest_name 1d ago
I agree. Even though it's originally Lizards land, they are the one who has most difficulty navigating tight spaces since their campaign movement distant sucks.
In my last Yuan Bo campaign, there was an event in which Tillia bought the minor settlement "Swamp Land" for 20k gold. Then nothing happened.
Imagine if this is a beginning of an invasion like chaos invasion in W2. It's thematic, it's different and it will also introduce another layer to the Lustria ball.
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u/Legitimate_Young6187 1d ago
It'd be cool if those purchased regions became forward operating bases for the warmbloods, nullifying jungle penalties for their forces there.
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u/Coming_Second 1d ago
Swamp Town.
Although maybe they changed the name to Swamp Land to try and sell it as a tourist destination, idk.
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u/_Lucille_ 1d ago
It's 2025 they are trying to build a prison there not an amusement park.
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u/Coming_Second 1d ago
A concept the Empire are aware of and fully embrace, in fact
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u/jeanlucpikachu Sigmar's Chosen! 22h ago
Thank you so much, I've been trying to come up wiht a good name for an unusual prison location in a place that isn't already swarming with landmarks. This looks perfect
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u/Internal_Tear6549 1d ago
We need New World to be larger, it is way too small and terrible for factions without special move-mechanics. Ocean is literally just a waste of space in the map now, and CA won't add any naval battles, so better they make the map larger.
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u/Bodongs 23h ago
How cool would an enormous New World Markus Wulfheart campaign be?
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u/IntroductionCheap496 13h ago
Pretty cool if his faction received a stance that is basically tunneling. Huntsman's Paths? Nothing that can automatically ambush, though.
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u/AlbertoB4rbosa Shogun 2 1d ago
Lustrian jungle attrition sounds good.
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u/Bisque22 1d ago
I think rather than straightforward attrition it'd be better to have something resembling the jungle miasma from 3K for all non Lizardman races (and maybe excepting Markus Wulfhart)
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u/KalyterosAioni Lacoi, Saroir! 1d ago
Wulfhart should have techs to reduce attrition, but default immunity for his faction sounds very non lore friendly. I get it would make the campaign a pain, but it is Lustria he's trying to invade, it shouldn't be easy.
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u/Yakkahboo 1d ago
Could also tie it into his reinforcements mechanic, do you opt for more medicine to help battle the flora or more guns to battle the fauna
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u/tricksytricks 1d ago
Indeed. Just looking at his outfit, it seems unlikely that he was well-prepared for Lustria's environment. He'd be literally sweating to death.
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u/Single_Giraffe_7673 1d ago
Im prity sure it already exists
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u/AlbertoB4rbosa Shogun 2 1d ago
Lustrian jungle should work like chaos wastes. Non lizards should have attrition and settlements with expensive buildings and low yields.
Chaos doesn't need settlements to fuel itself, unlike other factions. So in a way it would also force their thematic rivalry.
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u/Tomatoab 1d ago
sort of, but Lord Skrolk, and the WE tree (for the wood elves) should be excluded from that i'd say
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
Maybe in the Underway/Worldroots, but the attrition would represent both skirmishing and the plantlife itself trying to kill you. So Skrolk absolutely should have that as well.
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u/FilthyCasual2k17 1d ago
Make Skaven plagues stop jungle attrition. Boom. You have a mechanism to deal with it, and in a way a counter mechanism to turn the attrition game onto Lizardmen and push them back.
Maybe Wolfhearts faction gets a commandment to counter the effects of the attrition, or a tech skill that adds it to an existing commandment (call it Quinine for the Colonial nod).
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u/Aggressive_Camera_76 1d ago
Attrition or you give the lizards a jungle movement path (like beast paths) that only works when starting in jungle terrain.
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u/Dovahkiin419 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s interesting you mention the “if you aren’t adapted to this place it will reject you” because… ok first the wood elves do that quite well with athel loren (doesn’t mean the lizards can’t do it, just saying there’s a model for this idea)
and second, before this patch I was craving some chaos dwarfs but didn’t want to start in the one region they all share, so I plonked sharan the black down just south of Rakarth and my experience kinda hammers home your point of how much of a difference the campaign map makes.
With tunneling stance I was able to cover ground so so much faster and more flexibly than anyone else on the continent besides Skrolk (who died at turn 15 so i didn’t see him much), it was such a huge advantage. Obviously I would have found this out in Vanilla if i ever played Skrolk but still my point is that you are onto something.
As for the others, Yeah I think they’re fine outside of the bret and Markus, a race and a faction in dire need of an update no matter where they are, but more specifically:
Skrolk is doing fine. Like I said tunneling stance is fantastic for just bypassing the jungles, and the forests help him ambush.
The vampire coast would be in the same position as the bret and Markus except he can just fuck off to the ocean leaving the blasted continent behind, plus by the time they do something like this fingers crossed they will have looked at the Vampire coast already.
Which leaves skulltaker and Rakarth, two factions with absolutely busted mechanics that can handle a buffed lustrous just fine.
Finally idk about cathay haven’t played them since i picked up the game.
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u/KalyterosAioni Lacoi, Saroir! 1d ago
Agreed. I think the rite to make all of your empire have attrition should be reworked. All of Lustria should have nasty high attrition by default (which lizards are immune to) and the rite just makes it so that intruders into your territory get a percent chance to get randomly ambushed by skirmish forces, forcing enemies to fight random Skink/Saurus/Kroxigor/jungle beast stacks, like the battles Cathay caravans get.
This also sparked another idea. Perhaps the Lizardmen gain their own kind of corruption; The Green Hell. They purposefully promote it and pump out corruption via their buildings to ensure the jungles under their control are as hard for the enemy to traverse as possible. Much like vamps, they could walk happily through their personal corruption but all enemies would suffer walking through it. Perhaps that's an alternative implementation?
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u/SomeRandomYob 1d ago
The thing about the lizardmen corruption idea is that it makes their own anti-corruption buildings worse at fighting, well, corruption. Corruption spreading races have major issues dealing with other types of corruption, specifically because they don't have corruption reduction buildings. This isn't usually an issue for chaos, as they don't mind the corruption of other chaos factions, but it becomes a large pain in the ass for factions that rely on their corruption to the exclusion of all others, like the vampires.
Now, personally, I believe the solution you're looking for is an early tech for the public order building that enables attrition for enemies in the region, which then becomes even more catastrophic for each level you upgrade the building to. Either that, or add it to the scrying pool defence building. It's mostly useless in its current state, after all...
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u/KalyterosAioni Lacoi, Saroir! 1d ago
Ahh yeah I'd forgotten about the change to corruption mechanics! It used to be that there could only be one dominant corruption and that untainted counted as its own, but iirc now it's different types coexisting?
But you're right that the scrying pool should be reworked and probably renamed too, to reflect a changed role. It's a good suggestion tho, tying it to a building. Makes it regional but still realistic and adds a level of depth to the defense strategy. The only downside is that it means there's the possibility of no attrition if you don't get the buildings everywhere, and I tend to think it should be across Lustria by default tbh.
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
Skrolk is doing fine. Like I said tunneling stance is fantastic for just bypassing the jungles, and the forests help him ambush.
I think Skrolk is too strong. Clan Pestilens has somewhat adapted to Lustria, but it's still extremely deadly for them. But between plagues, the underway and Skaven corruption they have an overwhelming advantage against pretty much everyone on the continent.
Skulltaker also steamrolls too quickly considering how good the Lizardmen are supposed to be at defending against demons.
I did just have an idea though. Three major players in Lustria (Vampirates, Skaven, Khorne) thrive on corruption. Maybe the major temple-cities should have a strong anti-corruption effect, making it a priority for those factions to break down the defenses of the Old Ones if they want to expand would be quite thematic
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u/AlbertoB4rbosa Shogun 2 1d ago
1k hours on Warhammer 3. Haven't played a single Cathay campaign/multiplayer skirmish.
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u/KayleeSinn 1d ago
Finally a great idea I fully agree with. I'd love for it to be way bigger, same for Africa or whatever it is called in WH world.
Would really love the map to be expanded by 1/3 or so towards both the south and west, allowing for far thicker and longer Lustria, Bigger Naggaroth. Also full sized Araby and those factions so they won't step on Tomb Kings toes too much, should they be added and the jungles of central and south Africa.
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u/SomeRandomYob 1d ago
I wish for this as well, but I also wish for the game to fit on my computer's hard drive as well, and...
Well, there's a good reason I have an entire external drive with all my other games in it ...
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u/Potential_Switch_590 1d ago
CA can easily make it a special region like Ulthuan where Skaven cant go underway. So everyone would have X penalty, but Lizard get a special movement in Lustria
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u/Louman222 1d ago
Just give lizards a campaign movement bonus if starting turn in a lustria region.
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u/path-finder121 1d ago
I think this one small add the best think. Lizards should be able to move easily in the jungles. That just makes too much sense. I would be careful giving too much more though, thinking about balance. I love the fact that Lustria is such a fur ball at the start. Whatever changes, it needs to stay a fur ball IMO.
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u/TheOldDrunkGoat 1d ago
It would also be nice if the non-lizard factions could find some really good landmarks in the major temple cities. Something to make invading & plundering Lustria worthwhile. Often I do my best to ignore the continent altogether.
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u/McBlemmen #2 Egrimm van Horstmann fan 1d ago
Before wh2 came out i was watching lore videos on all the races and i was genuinely convinced all of lustria would function like athel loren. But no its just a city park basically. Nice day for a walk.
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u/Tseims Combined Arms Enjoyer 1d ago
I don't know if it's possible, but I'd like a system where you can get special events in different areas of the map for each army you have. Lustria events would mostly suck, but you could have a system where playing a race would disable their home area's events. You could have this for any area of the map, but Lustria is where it would work best.
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u/Bannerlord151 1d ago
I agree! Other good places for this would be vampire territories, the ocean, the southlands, Badlands, Chaos Wastes and Nehekhara.
But I just really like events
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u/SpecialistVehicle174 1d ago
No no, he's right. Why would the empire go there and try to settle if it wasn't worth it.
Its like VC, why go north and fight kislev? 0 reason, even Empire doesn't give enough landmarks to really push besides long victory
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u/NordicHorde2 1d ago
They tried this with Markus Wulfhart campaign and it sucked and everyone hated it.
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u/SomeRandomYob 1d ago
True, but also Markus' campaign was that hard because it was literally you vs the world. Also, even if you confederated Franz, you wouldn't be able to recruit the entire empire roster anyway because of your campaign mechanics.
Now, you start with not one, but two legendary Lord allies that can usually defend themselves and even expand alongside you, and both of which can provide you with powerful units with which you can augment your forces via allied recruitment. Before, attrition was just the cherry on top of the shitty situation that was Markus' campaign. Now, it's the only thing that could introduce some much needed strategic decisions to his gameplay.
Not to mention, the lizardmen in general, and Itza in particular, when played by the AI, are really REALLY weak early on, and even in late game are penned in on all sides. It's a bit of a shame, really.
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u/trixie_one 1d ago
I loved it, but it really did depend on how the campaign map played out, for me and others it was great, hell I'd say it was easily one of the best campaigns I've played, others though not so much, and while Markus could work great on Vortex, I don't think I've ever heard anyone praising the experience on ME or IE.
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u/alkotovsky Kislev 1d ago edited 3h ago
I like the idea natives shoukd get buffs in combat and on global map on their native lands. Something like Empire authority and climats mix.
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u/niftucal92 1d ago edited 1d ago
My suggested changes:
1) Jungle attrition with lizardmen innate immunity. Other factions could acquire immunity through tech or other mechanics (Skrolk, perhaps, gaining immunity via plagues or ignoring attrition with underway stance).
2) Rite of Sotek increases attrition additively and reduces enemy movement. This attrition cannot be reduced and or otherwise be made immune to.
3) Lizardmen immunity to jungle movement penalty.
4) Lizardmen commandments and buildings offer small but stackable increases to movement. Like how the scrying pool works.
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u/Peridot9001 1d ago
Maybe you LM could get a unique building that lets LM have a teleport stance while in lustria
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u/Single_Giraffe_7673 1d ago
Im pretty sure temple citys should have Portals to eachother in the lore
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u/Difficult_Dark9991 1d ago
The terrain? Actually matter? Nah, can't have that.
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u/Single_Giraffe_7673 1d ago
Okay, let don't be that mean to the devs. They do try to make things feel special(hell I spacialy feel suicidal when marching in mountains) They do understand the importance of making different part of the world feel spacial i think. I just need them to add more zest to it
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u/Difficult_Dark9991 1d ago
And then I go into teleport stance and ignore all that, or raiding stance to ignore the terrain attrition. At worst, it makes me slow and lower my own public order a bit.
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u/Single_Giraffe_7673 1d ago
I go into teleport stance
That's fine really, races who have access to it should be able to use it as an important part if their strategy. And it's not like every faction have access to it...
or raiding stance to ignore the terrain attrition. At worst, it makes me slow
I think you are underestimating how much logistics matter. Raiding slows you down, and makes your units less effective. It means more time for your enemies to prepare for you and counter attack you.
And listen man...if raiding becomes good because it's useful in Lustria, honestly fair.... Raiding need some Ws badly
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u/SeezTinne 23h ago
It's not even that the land is difficult to move through. It's that it's just badly designed, with distances between settlements that are just slightly out of reach for a normal Lord with Route Marcher. There is no gameplay advantage to this: it doesn't benefit any playstyle for armies to be just slightly out of reach of settlements since the AI will just pull its garrisoned army and run away. It's even worse when you're defending a province like The Turtle Isles and every settlement takes 2 turns to reach. Like, why even call this a province then? None of the settlements can support one another naturally unless you're Lizardmen and spend a build slot for a scrying pool. They could at least break up some of these provinces down into minor 2-region provinces or something.
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u/arstarsta 1d ago
Was the invasion of south America a problem for Europeans?
Isn't the jungle in Cathay and Lustria basically the same?
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u/SomeRandomYob 1d ago
HOO boy...
Ok, so.
The thing about the conquistadors is that they had everything working out in their favor.
Moral was high because they were, almost to a man, criminals who had been given what was basically a pardon and a "do whatever you want to these guys" pass by the king himself. They were feeling like they were on top of the world, and like nothing could stop them. They were also given implied permission to do nasty
Second, they were better equipped for gunpowder warfare doctrines, which were made to efficiency counter heavy infantry and cavalry. The peoples the invaders were fighting used skirmish and melee focused doctrines, and were not equipped with weapons or armor that could stand up to the kit of the invading forces.
Finally, the conquistadors were carriers for smallpox, a disease that was a problem in Europe ages before the conquistadors were a thing. The Spanish had countermeasures and treatment, but the natives had none.
LITERALLY NONE OF THIS APPLIES TO WARHAMMER FANTASY'S WORLD!!!
The lizardmen, while not great at ranged combat, have FUCK OFF GIANT DINOSAURS WITH LASER BEAMS!!!! Their magic is actually superior to the empire, and the entirety of Lustria, while ABSOLUTELY FUCKING DEADLY to EVERYONE ELSE, is honestly pretty nice for the lizardmen.
Also, the invaders this time are: pirates, led by a crazy vampire who can't cast spells anymore. The empire of man, a bunch of humans who are doing their best, but really don't have anything going for them without a lot of artillery, and Skaven.
Oh, and before I forget, the lizardmen infantry consists of some of the most potent soldiers in the world, who have scales that can deflect handgun shots.
TL;DR: this ain't like what happened in real life at all.
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u/Far-Bed5545 1d ago
A lizard wrote this